Chris's Story of the Week addresses the factual distortions in monologist Mike Daisey’s production, “The Agony and the Ecstasy of Steve Jobs,” that prompted NPR to retract a story featuring Daisey’s work. Watch the video above and read the full text here:
But first, a story that broke last week, that involved this program somewhat, albeit tangentially.
My friend and colleague Ezra Klein was filling in for me -- thanks, Ezra -- and said that I would have my response when I returned.
My thoughts on the story are somewhat complicated, so I decided to make it My Story of the Week: Truth and Consequences.
I first heard of Mike Daisey's monologue, "The Agony and the Ecstasy of Steve Jobs," sometime last spring when two friends of mine went to see a very early version of the work in Washington DC. They were both blown away and I particularly remember one friend recounting to me what would be the monologue's climactic moment, when a Chinese worker whose hand had been crushed and disfigured while working in a plant that made IPads was handed Mike Daisey's own iPad, and saw the device turned on for the first time.
As he flicks through the icons with his "ruined hand" he tells Daisey through Daisey's translator that "it's a kind of magic."
It now appears that that moment never hapened. The man with the "ruined hand" appears to have worked not at Foxconn, the factory Daisey visited but at another factory and it's unclear if he actually made iPads or if Daisey ever actually showed him an IPad.
You've probably heard all this by now because Daisey's been in the news in the wake of This American Life running an episode length retraction of their airing of Daisey's monologue. Daisey lied to This American Life's fact checkers about his translator's contact info and whereabouts and when his actual Chinese translator was contacted and interviewed by Marketplace reporter Rob Schmitz she contradicted many of the most dramatic details of Daisey's monologues, including him meeting with underage workers, the guards at Foxconn factory toting guns and the incident with the iPad and the man with the injured hand.
Daisey's defense is that, fundamentally, he was miscast in the role of journalist on This American Life: that he's a storyteller, a theater artist and he employs the narrative tools of the trade to tell a larger truth.
In fact he made that argument, more or less, on this very show just two weeks ago, before I or the general public knew about the factual inconsistencies that had emerged in his story.
Daisey on video:
“It's a complicated subject, I work as a monologist and a storyteller so fundamentally I tell a story and I use the tools of storytelling. I use compression, I use all these tools that the world of objective journalism doesn't use."
That's a perfectly fair distinction to draw, but like Ira Glass, I, too, took Daisey at his word when I saw his show, twice, that what he said he saw, he actually saw. When he said "I met workers who were 15, 14, 13, 12" I thought what he meant was "I met workers who were 15, 14, 13, 12."
It wasn't just my own naivete that led me to this conclusion. That was the explicit impression that Daisey himself conveyed. Here's an interview Daisey did with Seattle radio and podcast host Luke Burbank back in May, in which Burbank explicitly confronts him on the question of the factualness of his work.
Daisey interview audio:
Burbank: "How do you reconcile telling a good story with also trying to get the facts right and when do you decide what is the more important goal?”
Daisey: “Oh, well you know what I've found over the years is that the facts are your friends, like if there's ever a case where I'm telling the story and I find the facts are inconvenient, 9 times out of 10 it means I haven't thought about the story deeply enough. I really believe in this because the world is more complex and more interesting than my imagination. So the world is full of really fascinating things. You have so many tools on stage as a story teller. Like any time you want something to happen, you don't have to pretend it happened and lie, you can use a flight of fancy, you can say "I imagine what this must look like." You can say anything and you can go in whatever direction you need to go, but be clear with the audience, but be clear with the audience that at one moment you're reporting the truth as literally it happened, and another case you're using hyperbole, and you just have to be really clear about when you're using each tool. No for me it's not actually that hard if, and this is a big if, if you're pretty scrupulous, about not believing you know the story before you see it.”
I've had Mike Daisey on Up three times, so a little housekeeping is in order.
First, when we booked Mike on the program two weeks ago and had a conversation that was eerily resonant about the line between truthfulness and good story telling, I had no idea what was coming down the pike.
Second, we've reviewed Mike's appearances on the program and it doesn't appear that he ever made some of the most dramatic claims -- such as personally meeting underage workers -- that have now been called into question. That said, there were a few statements that now raise red flags.
At one point he mentioned that he was interviewing "hundreds of people" in China, but his translator told This American Life the number was more like 50. Additionally, Mike said this:
Daisey on video:
"Like officially, in China, the work day is eight hours long. In the books. I never met anyone, literally never met anyone who had even heard of the idea of an eight hour shift, when I was interviewing hundreds of people over there.”
This may have been a bit of hyperbole, but even the official Chinese news agency Xinhua quoted a study that found that in China 86% of migrant workers work longer than 8-hour days and the New York Times reported that the norm at the Foxconn factory is quote "more like 12."
Which brings me to my final point on this. Certain apologists are gleefully taking the opportunity to use Daisey's distortions to excuse Apple and the rest of American electronics manufacturers for the conditions in the factories in China that make their products. Forget Daisey even exists: the fact remains that working conditions in Chinese factories are incredibly harsh, workers have essentially no rights and violations are common.
There is ample documentation of underage workers, though they are quite a bit rarer than you'd be led to believe by watching Daisey's show.
There is ample documentation for unsafe working conditions -- a chemical-plant explosion just last month killed 25 people. Most importantly, however, to focus on the most dramatic instances of violations also loses the larger point, for the vast majority of workers in Chinese factories aren't underage, and aren't going to be disfigured in a gruesome visible way. No, for them the work is grinding, endless, with no work rules or autonomy that might give respite. As one Foxconn worker told CNN, at Foxconn "women work like men and men work like animals."In fact, in the version of Daisey's monoogue that I saw in Washington DC, he had an extended riff that zeroed in on this point. He invited the audience to consider what it would actually feel like to stand in one place for hours at a time, with few if any breaks and do the same small, repetitive hand motion over and over and over. In identical sequence, unending.
The line in front of you never stopping, the drudgery seemingly endless and the discomfort of standing still in the same position for hours beginning to light your nerves in your spine and legs on fire and how imprisoned in this monotony, you might take a chance to just knock something off the line, down to the ground to give yourself the briefest and most delicious of reprieves, to bend over and change position and feel those nerves quiet for just an instant. And he asked the audience to imagine the anxiety and dejection that might overtake you exactly mid way through the motion of bending down to pick up the item you've knocked off the assembly line, knowing you are now half way through this momentary break, that you're headed inexorably, swiftly back to the prison of the monotony of the line.
That moment was cut from the play in the later version I saw, but I still remember it and to me it's Daisey at his best. It is why the Agony and the Ecstasy of Steve Jobs was so powerful, because it forced us to recognize that there are actual human beings, with private lives and hopes and dreams and feelings and ailments and family and friends and souls like our own, who toil to make the disembodied devices that just show up in our Apple store. It forced us into a posture of empathy, to consider that under another set of circumstances those human beings on the other end of the supply chain could be us, our family, our friends, our loved ones. It forced us to ask the question why is it that we get to be the ones who delight in the beautiful design of the nifty devices while others have to be the ones that work under harsh conditions to make them. And what is our moral responsibiltiy, as fellow humans to those other human beings on the other end of our devices.
And it's actually this reason that I find the distortions in Daisey's work maddening, because it undercuts his own empathic project.
That man with the ruined hand, actually had a ruined hand it appears but didn't work at Foxconn and the magical moment when he encountered the iPad didn't, according to Daisey's translator happen. If that man were your father or uncle or you, you would want your actual story told about what happened, you wouldn't want to be simply used as a narrative prop in some other story. Genuine empathy means taking that man's humanity seriously and honoring that humanity by being truthful to what happened to him.
To see him as a means to a theatrical end is to make him into a cog in your own machine. And we are called to fight against exactly that.





The retraction by This American Life was pretty damaging. Mike really comes off badly there.
Liberals, just like conservatives, are susceptible to trying to make the world conform to their political ideology rather allowing the facts to determine what is true. It should be crystal clear to everyone by now that is what happened in this case.
One simple solution: When he is saying/performing something that he is imagining, he should explictly say to the audience (and probably both at the beginning and the end of the "imagining": "I imagine that...."
Well now I feel justified in disliking Daisey. I almost cried after this video, it was so moving. Great job.
Unlike mishmarie, I do not dislike Daisey. Feels like some sort of moment of true tragedy in his life. Thanks Chris, this was the response I looked for all week long. Eloquent.
Excellent opening on the news of the week segment Chris! You make us think beyond our normal comfort zones.
Very disappointing, because this will likely let Apple off the hook somewhat. Daisey is not, however, the only one who has brought conditions in Foxconn and similar factories forward for public scrutiny. The New York Times also did one in late Jan, as well as ABC News. I'm sure there are others that I should also list, so that is by no means a complete list.
The working conditions are still harsh. There are still nets outside Foxconn's windows to prevent suicides. There still the dorms on site in order to wake the workers and fill emergency orders, etc.
And Apple, as well as other corporations, still need to keep a closer eye on what's going on in the factories.
Oh? If Steinbeck met the man with the ruined hand and based a character in a novel on him, then wouldn't Steinbeck be making the person into a cog in Steinbeck's machine? If the Grapes of Wrath's Tom Joad bears only faint resemblance to the person or persons on which Joad is based, then are they too cogs because Steinbeck did not tell their actual story? Whether the fiction writer does or does not have the integrity to represent his work as fact to a third party, how does that act essentially change the writer's relationship to the man with the ruined hand. In both cases he is being made a cog making in the writer's machine. Hayes' moral argument is a mess.
How does Daisey's moral failing on his representation of his fictions render his use of someone's story unpardonable while it is presumably pardonable when Steinbeck refuses to tell the actual stories of the people his characters are based on?
Why are we so reluctant to forgive someone who lied to us as he got us to face the ugly truth of our moral culpability in the suffering of Chinese workers? Are we angry because we don't like having trusted frauds who tell us things that are not so? What if it is us telling the lies to ourselves? If Mike Daisey is a fraud without integrity, then are we not the bigger fraud for trusting our own fairy stories about how it is really ok and that we are not really doing something so wrong? Aren't these little white lies- is it so bad to behave as if these pure white magic devices are born in purity, made by happy elves who are overjoyed to give us this pleasure?
I am not making excuses for Mike Daisey's misrepresentation of fact. He easily could have presented the monologue as a dramatisation but for whatever reason did not. The work stands as a truth telling about Chinese workers. I applaud Daisey for his achievement in getting Americans to pay attention.
Do we apply the same standards of moral fiber and authenticity to our heroes? What about JFK taking advantage of Mimi Alford? Or MLK's promiscuity and plagiarizing in his dissertation? Let's not stop there.
These are words of Abraham Lincoln in the 4th debate with Douglas. Does Lincoln still deserve all the credit he is given for getting the country to face a dark truth about how we were treating black people? Lincoln may have harbored bigoted views and been inauthentic when he proclaimed the principles of racial justice in the Gettysburg address. Do his disturbing statements disqualify his achievements or the truth found in his speeches? I think not.
What is truly maddening about the Daisey incident is why the public does not give journalistic reporting the empathetic reception it deserves when it is not accompanied by theatrical flourish. I had more to say about non monopolies on truth telling in my comment on the Hayes blog las weekend and I close by repeating its conclusion:
Cathy Lee, Mike Daisy's translator, stated she wanted the American public to know the real China. Daisy's China has security guards with guns. The real China doesn't. Daisy's world has Apple products being built under horrific working conditions for an American public that doesn't want to hear that information.
That is the real China. That's the real American life.
"The Grapes of Wrath" was never presented as journalism.
That was my point. What is yours?
If Daisey does misrepresent his story as truthful, why is the person he based his fiction on slighted (turned into a cog), but not in the case of Steinbeck? I can see it if the fiction has any impact on the actual person, but any way of identifying the man's identity was not given. So this makes no sense. Clearly Daisey lied and this is immoral. But Hayes' moral logic on the turning of a person into a cog in the machine of one's fiction is murky at best.
I may have come off snarky, but I sincerely am confused about his reasoning because the explanations I come up with are those that I have every confidence Hayes would see as transparently illogical. I am not saying lets argue whether his position is correct, I am saying I don't understand the logic if his perspective. So if anyone can help me out, any clues you can jot down would be appreciated. You don't have to flesh it out completely, I can handle that if I have the basic structure.
Did I miss an apology from Chris Hayes for having Daisey on there without proper vetting? Up until this point I took for granted "Up" was a news show based on journalistic principles. "Up", like many others, dropped the ball by not checking up on the background of the story.
And to stave off one possible counter: Since apparently noone really checked his sources, and Daisey didn't permit communication with his translator, you can't say that Hayes was just quoting a source (in effect by having him on), basically noone vetted this guy, Hayes included.
Pardon me? Hayes also had Jack Abramoff on. Daisey does not present himself as a journalist. Hayes did not vouch for Daisey as a journalist, and his statements were not presented as a news story. Daisey as a guest presented his statements of fact as true, but so does Abramoff and the professors of linguistics he has on the show. I am confused at what standard you are holding up for opinion shows like UP and Face the Nation.
The reason we know about Daisey's fabrications is because he was belatedly fact checked by a real journalist, Rob Schmitz who works for American Public Media, broadcast on NPR as part of "Marketplace".
He lives in Shanghai and parts of Daisey's story smelled wrong to him. He found the translator and talked to her. It is in the transcript of the American Life retraction show. Maybe you should read it.
I thought Chris' essay on Daisey was eloquent and nuanced but was left with the sense that it stopped short of a conclusive statement about what amounts to a real betrayal. To say that Daisey's distortions are "maddening" is surely to say the least from Hayes' position. Daisey's response to Luke Burbank says it all: "you don't have to pretend it happened and lie," he said. But that's exactly what he did.
I have never heard anyone address my personal biggest concern with all of this: Singling out Apple is itself a gross distortion of the facts. Above (#6) we see Haddie Nuff saying "this will likely let Apple off the hook", but ALL of the reporting (and especially Daisey's performances) let HP, and Sony, and Microsoft, etc. off the hook. The SAME factory is used to manufacture devices for a host of brands sold around the world, but one company has been singled out, which gives the public the impression that this is a problem of a single bad actor.
Are people going to tsk-tsk Apple, then go to Walmart and buy cheap toaster ovens and underpants that were made by workers experiencing the exact SAME conditions?
For Daisey's original story to have had any real value, it should have gone beyond implying that there is a single bad actor, and acknowledged the true range and breadth of first world complicity in the treatment of Chinese workers. Where was your TV made? Where was your refrigerator made? Where was your coat, your bed sheets, the bowl that you put down for your dog to drink out of made?
If people want to help the Chinese workers, America should outlaw the importation of ALL products that were made under conditions that fail to meet reasonable standards for working conditions. Don't be fooled by stories about individual bad apples when the entire fruit basket is rotten!
Wow. I don't know what to say other than you never had a summer job did you, Chris? I have worked on an assembly line for 12 hours up in Alaska and I was glad to do it. I made a lot of money which helped me go to a very good school back east. Another guy who worked with me was the editor of his college paper. It was hard work and I wouldn't want to do for the rest of my life. But I did it for four months. Many other people still go up to Alaska and do the same jobs. Matbe you should try it once yourself before you make a statement like you did.
Wow, you mean they paid you a dollar an hour there for 12 hours, plus they only allowed you to eat and sleep where they told you and you had to pay them out of your wages unfair rates for your room and board?
No? Maybe you should try it once yourself before you made the comparison you did.
All this nuance and fatuous commentary from the great moralist of our times, Chris Hayes.
Get used to hearing more from Chris on apologies, like the smarmy one he made about his offensive comment that veterans should NOT be called heroes on Memorial Day Weekend because it tends to glorify war. He should be forced to read, ON THE AIR, U.S. Marine Sgt. Stacey's letter to his family in which he says his death which would bring them pain and seem an injustice, would be worth it if even one child there who enjoyed the gift of freedom and an education was able to help change the world.
Sgt. Stacey died in January from an IED in Afghanistan during his 4th tour there. He Was 23 years old and hails from Redding, California.
Thank God for Sgt. Stacey USMC.