An honest discussion of war & the politics of war is just what Americans are fighting for all over the world. A deep conversation on this subject is needed and should be welcomed by all.

Far too many Americans say "thank you for your service" and "welcome home hero" with out even a moments thought as to what that means. I think to take the time to consider the meaning of the war we have asked our veterans and service personnel to fight and how we respond to them is more than appropriate for Memorial Day weekend. It does not make you a patriot to just say the words, you need to think about that service, make sure the words are just not a platitude. If everybody just says something, the words become meaningless, and I don't want to be party to making our salute to our service men and women nothing more than a political slogan.

As a society, we are incredibly generous in our rhetoric when it comes to the troops, veterans, teachers, motherhood, and police and firefighters. We say that we want to honor the troops, take care of our veterans, do right by teachers, reward our police and firefighters, and that motherhood is the most important job in the world, but our actions and our policies simply don’t measure up. To compensate for our shortcomings, we devote ourselves to the promise that what we fail to provide for them in tangible support, we will make up for in glorious empty rhetoric.

One of the main reasons we have a volunteer force is because of the way the draft was handled and the way veterans were treated by leftists like Hayes when many of my friends were spit on by those ungrateful morons.
Having worn the uniform of a marine officer and served on active duty as a Naval Aviator I have all the respect in the world for anyone who served, in peacetime or wartime. Hey, Chris, by the way, what military service were you in.
President Eisenhower considered universal conscription which in various forms required that all who were physically & mentally capable would serve for two years on active duty and afterwords 5-7 years on active reserve.
Hayes laments the lack of participation in the armed forces, but just wait to 1 million vets hit the streets because Congress can't do its job to compromise so this nation will not be at risk when we cut 500 million on top of what we are already cutting. Hate to tell those who don't know the first thing about the military, you can't constitute a credible force overnight. For those sitting on their arses getting obese, review the history of the Korean war if you want to see what happens when you reduce the military irresponsibly.

If all people who serve in the military are Heroes what do we call the ones who actually preform extraordinary acts of bravery and valor?

When I asked my husband, who served in Vietnam ,if he considered himself a hero, he said "no, I was drafted, it wasn't a choice".

Quibbling about the use of the word hero is bad enough, but when people attempt to apologize and explain, the extremists still rip their heads off..how pathetic you are Raymond Smith.

Who is Chris Hays? Never heard of him.

Oh, never mind. I just realized he's a commenter for msnbc. THAT'S why I've never heard of him.

Two bit reporter on a two bit newssite....

Sorry to disappoint you, but MSNBC offers what we expect, unbiased reporting. There are presentations of the chicanery and lies of the repub/tparty, and a repub/tparty that has swallowed the Fox garbage could deduce they're lies, but let's face it - what credibility do they have when listening to Fox? Good point to remember with Fox, actually 2 points: 1. Fox was refused a license in Canada due to their blatant false information, etc., google it; and 2. Another recent study (8?) of Fox viewers put them at the bottom of the rung for thinking, or at the top for stupidity (they aren't as blunt in their report).

MSNBC staff don't, as a rule, refer to the repub/tparty memes as lies, but misinformation. I say call it as it is, lies, manipulated rhetoric. The charts on MSNBC are not devised artwork, as Fox uses, but factual info. Videos shown are not edited to deceive viewers, as breitbart and o'keefe have and are doing. They are shown as taken, without change.

Fox offers its viewers emotion, used to spread hate, fear and ignorance. That's it - as stated by the Canadian government. When an error is made on MSNBC by one of their broadcasters, it is usually followed by apology. We pity the viewers of Fox for not having enough between their ears to know they are manipulated into believing stupid and not know it. All they have to do is reach out, take the chance and listen to others besides the idiots who feed you what they want you to know and how to think.

No, he does not appear on Fox News. Perhaps that is why you have never heard of him.

Chris,

A simple apology would have been sufficient.

By going into a diatribe about what americans think and don't think lessens the sincerity of your apology.

To our troops, you are all heroes for placing yourselves, directly or potentially, in harms way.

Shame on you Chris for ever slighting our courageous troops!

Hey all you people that are bagging on Mr. Hayes Did you miss the part where he said "IM SORRY"....?

Accept and move on.

Good question George. I can't think of any good name to attach to these young men dying for a country that in ungrateful.

Any man or woman who gives their life in the pursuit of ensuring the safety of those with their heads buried in the sand, probably should be described as something heroic.

Most pundits blogging whether or not any war is a good idea (including most on this site and many others) have no idea how close to hell these people are and do so voluntarily. All because they want to serve their country, and defend it and what we stand for. To insist that a person dying for their country is anything less than heroic is coming from the truly disconnected. For those who wish to distinguish those who performed an act of valor from just regular soldiers who die, we have medals for that. that is, if you feel such a distinction is necessary.

I will believ this way of thinking the day they actually do an unbiased report on a democrat. How can you claim MSNBC is un-biased when all they do is rip republicans. Last i heard there are pigs in both parties but you will never see a broadcast that is negative toward any democrat, especially when it comes to the POTUS. 99% of MSNBC staffers are practically campaigning for Obama. No one in the news reporting business should be allowed to voice opinions on air that are for or against any party. All news personnell should be unbiased in their reporting and in their political leanings.

When someone trys to give an apology with a but - then it is not an apolgy.

Dom...you must not watch MSNBC, because they call out Democrats ALL THE TIME!!!! They are CONSTANTLY on President Obama because of his LACK of a backbone and not being nearly as liberal as the right claims he is. They have also had Republicans on and been very kind and respectful. When they say something that isn't 100% correct, they apologize or clarify.

earthgirl, MSNBC offers unbiased reporting? You need to start taking the earbuds out and actually listen to the biased trash they spout daily.

"They are CONSTANTLY on President Obama because of his LACK of a backbone and not being nearly as liberal as the right claims he is."

That tells the whole story right there. MSNBC is a leftist organization that pushes a leftist agenda and is upset when the government is not far enough left to suit them.

Not really a proper, unbiased news organization as claimed.

Kaneblues - my thoughts exactly. We revere in words all these wonderful people and complain loudly when we are asked to put our money, time and resources where our mouths are. This country would be in much better shape if the non-military citizens had been willing to pay the taxes to pay for these wars and adequately arm and protect those who did serve. Our education system would be in much better shape if we actually supported teachers commensurate to what we say we value instead of nickel and diming them because we get frustrated over a few bad apples. It is hard to feel valued when one has to buy supplies for ones students or one knows that the best protective armour is not available because it costs too much in an era of low tax rates.

You have to remember something though: They were brought in under the disguise of fighting for the freedom of their nation, only to instead invade a Sovereign nation. Most after 9/11 joined up so they could hunt down Bin Laden, not fight Bush's Oil War, or Cheney's "Make Haliburton Rich By Rebuilding Everything" War. Unfortunately, when you join the army, your ass IS theirs, and if you want your benefits, you have to go where they SAY you have to go.

To me, they are heroes. They're willing to stand on the frontlines so I don't have to, and frankly, I could never do what they do on a daily basis. I know not every day is a gunbattle in the sandy streets, but there are snipers and mortar squads over there too. You could just be standing there, and "Allah Akbar" pops you in the skull, or fires a mortar at you, or you could be rolling along and an IED rips your vehicle apart. It sounds like Hell.

You have to think for a moment, a lot of the men ran over there to protect this country, and to help the people there. It's just like Vietnam, and no one has the common sense to pull the plug, because I don't think our leaders wanna say "Yeah, we lost the war". We killed Bin Laden, he's dead, and there will ALWAYS be more people to replace him. ALWAYS. It's time to just say... yeah. Bin Laden's dead. Let's go home.

MSNBC is not pushing for any agenda any more than Fox is. It's a media outlet. Period. To claim that MSNBC is pushing a leftist agenda would be to claim that Fox is pushing the agenda of the right. If they were really pushing an agenda, they would be giving money to the PAC's and DNC campaign funds. They are not doing that. They are contractually denied the right to donate to political campaigns. Get over yourself...

Never ruin a good apology with an excuse!

Anyone pick up on Obama's comment during his Viet Nam shame speech this weekend. Not enough to say that our troops were treated horribly by the left wing douche bags, he had to provide and excuse for them, paraphrase here, "the troops were treated badly because some of the troops behaved badly" which is an out and out lie! the troops were treated badly by a bunch of snot nosed, longhaired, maggot infested losers who had very little understanding or knowledge of what was going on in Viet Nam, they all quit whining once the draft was overturned.

It was only a few years ago that the right-wing meme machine conflated "Support Our Troops" and Bush's monstrous war policies. If you didn't support the wars then you didn't support the troops and where therefore not patriotic.

In that context, Chris Hayes's comments make perfect sense. He didn't mean to denigrate anyone who serves our country; I understood his remarks in the context of politicians using language to manipulate public opinion.

Hayes is stupid self entitled creep. Coming from a military family...any guy or girl that goes into a combat zone and loses 80 pounds due to insuficient nutrition, stays up all day and night with their face in the dirt as bullets zip over thier heads or spends day after day trying to piece together wounded soldiers is a hero.

Or maybe he should think of it like this...he has the luxury of saying what he wants how he wants because men and women in the military sacrificed to give him that freedom...maybe he'll think they're heroes then

This is so Sad.... why? Why? WHY? Is this about attention or something? Why?

I understand the Contempt displayed here. I have served my time, I am not a hero. I have tried and tried to do my very best for this nation, in all ways possible that I can accept and support.

Mr. Hayes, We fought for those that did not, could not or would not. To protect, defend and uphold the constitution. It isn't for everyone, I did it so we - All of us - can continue to exist and live freely of our own accord and conscience. The word "Hero" does get used far too freely by sensationalized media types. It is used by those who have served in a near reverent manner and term of the best descriptor our language gives us and is highest honor we simple folks can give to our nations fallen soldiers, we have little else to offer them except reverence, honor and respect.

In order to comprehend the real meaning of this , their sacrafice, is to be emotionally moved to a point of full submission of our own will and share the sorrow of loss, these family's will endure for all time and history forward.

Maybe, just maybe, I hope you have a moving enough experience to realize just how tenable and fragile our nation is and how your actions and words going forward dishonor their very sacrifice, so you can have the right to speak them. I pray we will always have this freedom but please remember when the next time you choose to exercise this freedom, it was paid for in blood by a fallen soldier.

For all of you on this shameful post, be respectful and responsible with your use of freedom to Speak your mind.

I hope you think of them when you have the urge to challenge actions, pontificate your lack of or support or politically object / support to things you don't understand, but are for the greater good of the world and all of mankind.

May none of them ever be forgotten or dishonored or have their place in our total national history diminished. This is what a hero is. Memorial day is for the honor and remembrance of our American Soldiers who fought and died upholding and protecting this moral and righteous cause of freedom and liberty for all.

Mr. Haye's, you dont need my forgiveness, even though you have it. I beg you to be responsible and respectful of your rights and freedom. Give it a little reverance in your life and you wont be so quick judge, one way or the other, maybe just stop and think first.

But in seeking to discuss the civilian-military divide and the social distance between those who fight and those who don't, I ended up reinforcing it, conforming to a stereotype of a removed pundit whose views are not anchored in the very real and very wrenching experience of this long decade of war. And for that I am truly sorry.

I agree Chris 100%. You are sorry, a sorry loser who has no respect or recognition of the fact that millions get up every day and protect your free right to menstruate. By the way, mix in some proper English grammar and quit writing like you are chatting with your loser friends at Starbucks.

Tough for millions of Americans to swallow (especially since the U.S. MSM kept images of dead and injured Iraqi people and children off their programs and still will not report the numbers killed) that the invasion of Iraq was based on a "pack of lies" and that hundreds of thousands have died for no good reasons. No one went to Iraq to "protect our freedoms" A total myth that you may need to believe to stay sane. But "the protect our freedom" spin was and is a lie in regard to the invasion of Iraq. Best take down of the lies by George Galloway when he mopped up the floor with former Rep and Iraq war pusher Norm Coleman. Listen, watch and learn John or stay in your bubble..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuzlwFXeW3A

@Tusk:

Why do you so conveniently ignore the reality that there are at least as many "leftie" heros as those who could possibly, somehow, agree with your vilification of them? They are heroes, too. Your statement removes that honor from them, all in the need you seem to have of being more moral, or more correct than they.

Why don' t YOU take that same walk, and realize that every other grave you pass or touch is that honoring a "leftie", and remember that those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice for your right to bloviate asked not your opinions, nor approval before defending your right to make such self-serving, and blatantly pathetic words.

The ignorant Baggerism on here is just stunning.

Especially from this Tusk buffoon.

Sorry I missed the program. What I do know, if the repub/tparty are so concerned about our military, why do they, at every turn, try to subvert any help to the military and/or their families. When the yearly military funding bill came up, the repub/tparty did their usual tactic, trying to force Prez Obama in a corner by adding their poison pill. They were not interested and couldn't care less that the bill affected our military, that they would be put in jeopardy. Heck no. They only cared about 'digging' our Prez, and he outsmarted them all, because he is above their pettiness. Remember, the goal of the repub/tparty, the NO.1 Priority, is one-term for our President. They fear him because he is FOR Americans, for the working class, for seniors, the disabled; while the repub/tparty is for their wealthy funders and corporations and the heck with the rest. Yep, that's the repub/tparty. Take stock - why are the billionaires like Koch Bros., DeVos, Adelman, etc. spending over a billion dollars to get their 'boys' in? Think about that, they already have more than enough money to buy Congress, what are they after?

earthgirl Obama did not raise millions of dollars from the middle and lower class he also plays to the rich don't forget that.

They all work for the rich, if they worked for the middle class and poor our country wouldn't be in the screwed state it is in. @Tusk, yes the Dems were in charge when we got into WWI and WWII, Korea, escalted Vietnam BUT it was Daddy who put us in the Mid-East and Jr who bankrupted the country by going into Iraq before finishing the job in Afghanistan and lowering the taxes for his cronies. They are all guilty it isn't just one party and until the country wakes the hell up and cleans house and demands what should be done we will continue to be screwed while they laugh all the way to their banks in the Cayman's! I don't mean just taxing the wealthy when I say clean house, I mean term limits, no lobbyists and no great retirement plan for serving a couple of terms in congress! Take care of the military people not weapons programs!

Did you know that 14% of the millionaire's are Teachers or from the Education system. I would say that the majority of them are registered Democrats. I know that doesn't have to do with this article, but you can see where the Dem's get their contributions from. Just saying.......

I just listened to the program. There was nothing to apologize about. If people can't have an inteligent discussion about war and all its ramifications, then we are in deep trouble as a nation. I thought the tone of the discussion throughout was respectful, particularly by Chris Hayes.

Hmm couple things. By a landslide our military always votes conservative. They know historically that they dont even get cost of living raises from the democratic party. 2nd it was the liberal party that threw stuff at my older brothers when they returned from Vietnam not the conservatives. You didnt hear conservatives chanting make peace not war and throwing stuff at our troops at the same time. But also historically our military votes nearly 4 to 1 for the republican party.

This past summer kangaroo gas stations had a fund raiser to help buy necessary supplies for our troops. Vests, and such, not games, toys, snacks etc. They werent the only ones either. Since my time in the military which was long ago, I do not remember this being necessary. Now Obama promises that our troops will have a clear goal, etc, etc, the tools necessary to do the job...... Either give them the tools, or quit making promises that you already broke. I'm no republican because I dont like either side, but I'd rather be a republican than a democrat. The first may hurt my wallet, but the second will hurt my soul, and wallet, and then blame me or anyone else that they can for why it isnt their fault.

In four years of this presidency the only thing I see that he has successfully done is to push off the blame onto others. He is very talented at that. And as long as he is talented at that he can trick the younger people into believing him. Oh traditionally speaking most elderly are republicans as well. So as long as we have enough of the younger generation willing to ignore thousands of years of knowledge of respecting and listening to their elders, we will keep getting more of the same garbage for the next 4 years. The younger generation would rather believe in politicians than their own elders. But thats why this country is in the mess it is. Trusting politicians is simply foolish. Trying to pick the lesser of evils is our only choice and we need to listen to our elders on how to do just that.

earthgirl...doubling down on kicking the caskets with Medal of Honor winners is not very attractive. Good luck with that.

dont worry, earthgirl will come back and tell you stop watching FOX, its her main shtick. this is about Hayes dumping on our Military ( including me) veterans. It isnt about MSNBC editing zimmerman's 911 call and not apologizing, or fox's lean to the right, or MSNBC's lean to the left. what sickens me is people here actually are sticking up for his disrespect. its all over cyberworld, people are pissed and have a right to be. for anyone who ever served, you know what honor is. for those who have not and sit here defending this puke...i do not feel sorry for your concience.

I get so tired of people saying that soldiers serve so I can say whatever I want, even if it's anti-military. Oh, the irony of it all, how dare I exercise the free speech they supposedly served to protect?! Right now, the military, in addition to all of the freebies that soldiers are showered with, pays $20,000 signing bonuses. I'm not sure a true hero would have to be paid $20,000 just to enlist. But, I guess if we're going to call _everyone— a hero, then the word has no meaning and it doesn't matter.

Explain exactly how these last two wars have directly threatened our constitutional rights. Do the scary terrorists in the Middle East really have that power? The jingoism running throughout this thread is sickening.

The outraged teabaggers on this thread, dutifully sent here by their rightwing masters to spew their BS talking points, clearly did not view the discussion in its entirety, or don't have the wattage to understand what was being discussed.

Hayes was talking about the abuse of the term "heroism" as a justification to pursue policies that are anything but in the Nation's best interests. On numerous occasions, he took great pains to state that he was not denigrating the service of those in the military.

Chris Hayes has NOTHING to apologize for.

Basically hooey. The U.S. invaded Iraq based on a "pack of lies" thousands have lost their lives based on those lies. Had nothing to do with "our freedom"

Former IAEA inspector in Iraq during the 90's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_lccBUyPZg

Former head of the CiA's Bin Laden Unit Micheal Scheuer

http://www.c-span.org/Events/Michael-Scheuer-Former-Head-of-CIAs-Bin-Laden-Unit-1996-99/7259/

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/197115-5

Iraq and Afghanistan Vets testimonies in front of congressional members about some of the things that have gone on. The MSM did not cover these hearings. Cspan did. Soldiers with a conscience. Watch and listen to these hearings. These folks are heroes because they stepped up to the plate and told the truth

http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier

Right on the mark! Thanks for a great comment!

If you were truly sorry for the painful remarks, you would resign immediately and write a personal letter of apology to everyone having lost a loved one in the line of duty over the past 5-10 years.

Sure. That's feasible.

Oh please....give it a rest. The pompous right is really tiring. This country is pretty well divided between left and right and that's why elections are so close (if it is so far to the right - how did Obama get elected). Hayes is a perfectly reasonable commentator and lacks the self-righteous pomposity of some of our other notable non-veterans - like Rush Limbaugh.

People who have been in actual combat don't fight to act as heroes or to defend their flag - they fight to defend their fellow soldiers and to not disappoint their fellow soldiers - and to save lives...their own life and the lives of those around them. It's the Rush Limbaughs and other non-combatants who jump on the bandwagon and indescriminately throw out the label "hero."

Where were you when the right wing was smearing Max Cleland and John Kerry?

An appology does not have to be accepted. If a person feels that it is not truely meant. If it is just to protect your image then your heart is not truely there. Do you say I'm sorry for stabbing you as you plot your next attack? In a week or maybe two there will be another questionable comment from him. Then another appology and so on. If you are sorry for what you say then DON'T SAY IT. A speech, news story or commentary is usually written out, studied and practiced before it is aired. Therefore there is no excuse for not knowing what you said.

I will not accept this one unless I see an honest attempt to show there has been a shift in the thinking. Not just an attemp to clear your name and protect your job.

True patriots never question the motives of other citizens when they choose to exercise their right of free speech.

jerryb2339
Oh please....give it a rest. The pompous right is really tiring. This country is pretty well divided between left and right and that's why elections are so close (if it is so far to the right - how did Obama get elected). Hayes is a perfectly reasonable commentator and lacks the self-righteous pomposity of some of our other notable non-veterans - like Rush Limbaugh.

Hayes is a purse-swinging loser. Lefties have been stating the election will be close for months and months. Translation: They lefties can only hope the election is close enough to get some sort of October surprise claiming victory.

Reality: It wasn't close 6 months ago. It is very close now and trending for a big GOP win.

Another fact-free, moronic diatribe by someone who dutifully does what he is told. Better go back to Rush and see what he wants you to say in your next idiotic post.

I don't know if you actually watched the discussion or have seen just the one-sentence where Chris questioned the use of the word "hero" to describe all those in the military, but I have to wonder why so many, including you, just a few weeks ago agreed that the actions by those few who demean their enemy, their fellow service members, and themselves by posing with their body parts or allegedly carry out a vigilante mission to kill 17, mostly women and children Afghanis asleep in their homes, are despicable and not becoming any member of the military, yet can't understand why Chris raises the question of "Does the term "hero" apply to those people as well?" Chris wasn't dishonoring those who truly honor by serving to protect our nation, but asking I think, should the term apply to those killed in wars begun by the nefarious actions of leaders? Does the term hero apply to any soldier in any military who dies in the service of his/her country's leadership's decisions?

Can't we discuss such questions so we can better determine when we should ask those serving in the military to put their lives at risk and do it without casting derogatory aspersions on those who raise the questions? Was the discussion as a whole unforgiveable or the one question?

Oh, when someone doesn't agree with you its "hate".... typical liberal verbage!

Well, that dog don't hunt anymore!

Not hate, just calling him out and telling it like it is. The poor fool might not know he is such a one sided flaming liberal!

@Truth:

Seems to me Mr. Hayes called himself out, almost like he didn't even need your encouragement or assistance. Your hatred for "liberal verb(i)age" notwithstanding, that dog don't hunt, either. The "poor fool" and "one(-)sided flaming liberal" indicates certain hate. It's not Mr. Hayes'. It's yours. This somehow "honors" heroes by your words? Seriously? Your vitriol is a clear disservice to those heroes, and you should be ashamed.

You spoke the truth the first time, Chris. I totally agree with you. There are many people in uniform that I would not call heroes. Despicable, perhaps. The heroes are those who protest that people have to be sent into these "wars"

Most of the people who posted the worst vitriol probably don't watch the show anyway.

Yeh, just like the people who don't watch Fox or any of the other shows not promoted by the liberal media. Maybe if we all started listening to both sides, with an open mind and try to understand the points of view instead of just bashing we could get somewhere and strengthen this country again. Strength comes from within. The more divided we become, the weaker we are getting. We the people will all lose in the end if we don't come together.

I don't think our military are calling each other names and blaming Dems, Repubs, or whatever when they are out there fighting for their lives. I would guess they are trying to work together and protect each other and help each other regardless of their political party views. And ever one of them is a hero to someone weather we even realize it or not.

It is not HATE when you call someone that believes different than you a corporate pig, but it is hate when they say you are liberal. I fail to understand your arguement. There is a difference in a hand up and a hand out.

There are people in our Military that are less than reputable, but when the chips are down they ALL are soldiers. They do the job they were hired to do.

There is no one President that can be blamed for everything wrong right now and there will not be one president that fixes it. All of you arm-chair experts that sit here and try to govern our country need to watch through open eyes not closed minds.

Without our Military we would have no country. If you don't like our Military then move to a country that doesn't have one. Oh wait, there is no country without a Military.

I am a soldier and i went to Afghanistan. No we are not hero's just Americans. If you think the war was not worth it ask yourself this. Has there been an attack on US Soil since we went over there. No but watch what happens when we leave.

I consider myself conservative. Be you democrat or republican it is just a system to separate the American people. United we stand divided we fall. This country has bigger problems that the comments made by this guy.

Costa Rica has no military....Just FYI

@Truth,

If you and your teabagger friends ever offered any honest commentary, you might be taken seriously. But the incoherent garbage being spewed around here offers no starting point for a meaningful discussion.

You've been told what to do by your rightwing masters and that's all you need.

How about you let other Americans decide for ourselves what we will and won't forgive?

I agree this is one reason MSNBC is such a fringe network. Sorry folks but this man Chris is a idiot.

Well put Jamie.

One of the points made during Sunday's show was just how removed most Americans are from the wars we fight (Ummmm... depends what you mean by "removed." I've lost TWO close family members over the span of 10 years... I suppose the churlish circles in which I run afford me a perspective that "most of us" don't--especially when "most of us" means "self-centered twats who went to Brown, bitched about the car they were given at 16, and whose only experience on a bus is a 'tour bus.')

actually the word you should have focused on is "MOST" (as in, not all NOR one person singularly, as your response implies) and that is NOT what "most of us" means as I can look back 3 generations in my own family and only find one person who was ever in military service (my grandfather) but that was because of medical conditions that were passed on through the bloodline (Sickle Cell Anemia) and other physical disabilities (Cerebral Palsy) which precluded us from ever being chosen anyway. It is not that I had the privileged upbringing that you toss out so flippantly about Mr. Hayes and, in so doing, imply that there are a good chunk of others who fit the bill (I, as a first-generation African-American male to go to University in my family, most certainly do NOT fit that bill). I am sure that most did not endure what those who serve or support said endure and therefore we will never truly know all that those who serve know. While I may disagree with Chris' use of the term "Collective Guilt" (which may not be collective but is still guilt as very few can say why the troops are still on the frontlines and why they are not home -- nebulous reasons from EITHER party are unacceptable when there are real lives at stake), I also wouldn't blanketly describe it as total 'solemn reverence' either. As to your comments regarding Chris' use of the term Pro-Forma, for some, it may be because they do not have the same reaction, response, or respect or even PERSPECTIVE that you have but they feel it is the right thing to do on a day like Memorial Day. I would equate it to an Atheist going to church with their Mother on Mothers' Day just because she asked: They are doing it as something they feel they should do but it does not have the same reverence or meaning for them as someone who is an actual believer and would go to church regardless. Me paying my respect no matter how will never mean as much as someone who served doing so. What I would ask those who have served and their families to know is that, personally speaking, I repect and thank them for their service and shouldering the burden that I know that I (nor Chris, as he points out) could or have ever done. As to your anger at Chris using the 'Royal 'We'', I don't understand it. He began with the phrase 'Most Americans' early on and he keeps that tense and you are upset? What he was saying here, I think, is that, as Americans we become removed due to a culture of war and we need to do more...himself included. What is the problem?

James Boyle said:
100% support your original remarks, along with millions of morally sound Americans.

If by "morally sound" you mean "worthless cowards" who rise and sleep under the very blanket of freedom our brave men and women in the military provide and then question the way in which they provide it, then, yes. Chris is "morally sound".

James Boyle said: 100% support your original remarks, along with millions of morally sound Americans.

If by "morally sound" you mean "worthless cowards" who rise and sleep under the blanket of freedom that our brave men and women who serve provide - and then question the way in which they provide it, then yes, Chris is very "morally sound".

I also support 100%, James

Jim Gordon wrote:

If by "morally sound" you mean "worthless cowards" who rise and sleep under the blanket of freedom that our brave men and women who serve provide - and then question the way in which they provide it, then yes, Chris is very "morally sound."

I hope you realize you're quoting a fictional character who gave an unlawful order that caused the death of a Marine and was willing to let two junior enlisted Marines take the blame, in order to protect his own career. Hardly a model of heroism.

@BPI Squirrel ... I was thinking the same thing! He can't handle the truth :)

well, Rick, on Memorial Day, we're not honoring people who 'died' from a staph infection stemming from a shaving accident in Iowa... we're, rather explicitly, honoring those who died in combat... with their boots on... doing their duty. For you, their deaths may be the result of a 'poor career choice'... but one could say the same for construction workers. This holiday is.to.honor.servicemen.killed.in.combat. Is this a difficult concept for you?

@ Jamie.

No. You are incorrect.

From the Department of Veteran Affairs:

"Memorial Day, which is observed on the last Monday of May, commemorates the men and women who died while in the military service." It is NOT only for combat deaths, and to suggest otherwise is disrespectful to my uncle and thousands and thousands of others. Which is ironic given the tenor of your comments throughout this forum.

Nicely said, Rick

jamie, if you had watched the show, you would have learned when Memorial Day begun and what it meant. But you obviously didn't watch the show.

doesn't matter if they wanted to fight for our freedoms the fact is that they did fight for our freedoms.

Rick...A touch of sanity was welcome and your post a breath of fresh air. Thank you for your service and the sacrifices that your family made so that you could serve....and get an education as well as a skill set. Reason seems to have escaped the masses...Some things have no hidden meaning or agenda....They are what they are. I appreciate your honesty and down to earth approach to the whole issue.

Rick, thank you for your sane perspective.

Who is the "you" you are referring to? If it was Rick...What does he have to be ashamed of? Telling the truth as he sees it? Wow, that really is a b!tch, isn't it?

I think jt 1967 was referring to that feminist Chris Hayes. She's really got a lot of nerve.

Well, duh! He works for MSNBC. They only hire people like Chris. You know the type. What we scrape off our boots after mucking out a stable.

Are you serious?

The only "reputation" MSNBC or Hayes have is that of being a flaming liberal overtly one sided media outlet.

If it bashes traditional American values or our Constitution, they're "for" it!

When I read your first posts, I honestly believed you had a disagreement. Then, as you continued to regale me with your words, I became convinced you were (and are) a paid commenter coopted by the Tea Party.

I am now convinced you have a pathological illness, and suggest you step away from the keyboard and seek professional help. That's what I think.

Now kybudman, surely everyone here who claims to be a Chris Hayes fan and uber liberal, and then trashes him, is completely sincere. Yeah, that's it, sincere.

I think kybudman is a tool, not unlike chris hayes. By the way, am I the only one who thinks Hayes is just Rachel Maddow in disguise?

Ellen, you are a true idi*t. How dare you question my sincerity? I most certainly can be a liberal and criticize certain specific opinions, actions, mistakes of those I generally agree with. I love my kids. Doesn't mean I'm happy with everything they do; doesn't mean I don't get angry with them on occasion. It is the responsibility of thinking, honest progressives to speak out when one of their own f**ks up, as Chris did. Much better in the long run.

By the way, am I the only one who thinks Hayes is just Rachel Maddow in disguise? --Greg Dudak

No disguise needed. They even look alike. Change the glasses, a little makeup and Rachel becomes Chris.

Or is it visa versa? What ever. A game I am sure they both are familiar with.

ppalumbo1347
I generally like your show and I agree with much that you have to say...except yesterday.

"...Rhetorically proximate to justifications for more war.."??? What kind of faux-erudite crap is that? Being a hero has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the decisions of others that put him or her there were the right ones.

As a proud liberal, I am furious that you and your two know-nothing panelists managed to give Republicans a week's worth of material to paint us as un-American. You've really damaged your own reputation as well as MSNBC. I suggest you spend some time reflecting on something that you clearly have spent little time thinking about: what military service means to those that serve as well as those that benefit.

MSNBC's reputation as an ultra-left wing, military hating media outlet is undamaged. If Hayes was actually watched by more than his few friends, family and some old BF's he would probably have actually caused a sustained anger. At the end of the day Chris Hayes and his ilk, like the former Keith Olberman, Chris Mathews and Maddow are so twisted into left wing pretzels they can't be take seriously by 98% of Americans, or Martians, for that matter.

Don't dispair, every week some left winger is stepping on your toes, ruining your day. This week Chris Hayes, last week Corey Booker, Ed Rendel, Mass Gov. what'shisname and 15 others. The week before is was Joe Biden for the umpteenth time. Next week, who knows who?

So people who watch what they say, so that the other side's propaganda machine won't have any fuel for their fires? Sounds like you want to censor what people can actually say for political expedience.

Well said, Captain. I'm a DAV-Life Member and while I think that Hayes truly 'stepped in it' with his initial pedantical remarks and was extremely insensitive, I believe as you do that he has now realized his error in those remarks and, perhaps, may have a whole new perspective that goes beyond the Upper West Side and 30 Rock. We shall see. Meanwhile, I too accept his apology. I would like to know, though, the opinion on this matter of Col. Jack Jacobs USA (ret.) MOH, an MSNBC commentator that I highly esteem and whose views and insights I can't get enough of.

It's so tiring to hear the "we died/served so you could have the freedom to bash the military" cliche. How has any war the US fought for the last 200 years had anything to do with securing our freedoms? Our country hasn't been in danger of invasion and conquest since 1812. Saying that WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Iraq, Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq2 were about protecting us from an enemy that was about to destroy us is laughable.

I am confident you didn't watch the whole segment. Do so and try again.

@Spartan:

And please tell me, kind sir. Which philosophy do you represent with your words? I'd really love to know. I do know that I have not recently seen any writing more anti-american than these words you have found so necessary to share with us today.

I would tell you that there are many "liberal yellow backs" here in America that would truly be honored to respond to your vitriol if you were sincere enough to speak them to their faces. Christians, too. Gay liberal Christians at that. Of course, some (such as myself) who are retired form the Military would love to instruct you on the wisdom of measuring your words before you present them to public inspection. Vomit if you must, but I would sincerely suggest you work on keeping your mind on things that make us all, as Americans, willing to work for change, and off of thoughts that create delusions of grandeur. It could only work in your favor.

As the wise Chinese philospher once wrote: "It is better to keep silent, and have others think you a fool than to open your mouth (or type with your fingers) and remove all doubt."

There's always the simpleton that rears his ugly head..and here's today's version!

So what rock did you come out from under! Its time to think for yourself, and quit beliving everything the republican party is shoving into that empty space between your ears. I'm a liberal and I served 22 years in the Navy, and I object to you generalizing that all liberals hate America and christianity. I love my country and as far as so called christians go... well I have not met very many true christians.

Memorial Day is for all service members who have did in the service of their country not just in combat. What about the service member who died stateside putting a piece of equipment onto a ship that will be used in combat, or the dispersing person who makes sure that service member gets paid. My dad was in WWII and Korea but didn't pass away until 2003, is he a hero? you damn right he is and Memorial Day is for him as well. What branch of the service did you serve in?

Beautifully written Stalwart72. Honestly I have never been more sickened or shocked as when I heard Mr Hayes speak these words. It is those who willingly serve to protect this country, our freedoms who are called to fight for democracy and freedom throughout the world who are my heroes no matter how Mr Hayes chooses to define heroism in his shallow mind. Anyone who makes the sacrifices soldier makes while serving in the US military is a hero. People like Mr Hayes have the right to spew their foolishness because American soldiers have fought for that right. On Memorial Day no less....Shame on you Mr Hayes.

I was drafted way back when we did that in 1965. I never considered myself a Hero because I was forced into the Army. But today we have an all volunteer Armed Forces... I consider every one of them to be the Hero that I was not.

Joe...You could have become a CO, you could have burned your draft card, you could have ran to Canada. You didn't. Your country called and you served. You, too, Sir, are a hero...Just as those are that volunteer to go into harms way for their own reasons and purpose. Thank you for the sacrifices that you and your family made to serve us armchair bloggers.

Joe...You could have become a CO, you could have burned your draft card, you could have ran to Canada. You didn't. Your country called and you served. You, too, Sir, are a hero...Just as those are that volunteer to go into harms way for their own reasons and purpose. Thank you for the sacrifices that you and your family made to serve us armchair bloggers.

And so too are the COs, draft card burners, those that fled to Canada and everyone else who had the moral courage to refuse to become part of the immoral and outrageous Vietnam War. All of those people are hero's too.

Oh good, some common sense in the comments before I got here. Bravo, Teyar. Chris Hayes presents a clear idea that Americans are not informed about the full extent of war and has the cahones to suggest that not every soldier is a hero. He doesn't even try to say which ones are and which ones aren't specifically yet in response he gets publicly pummeled by the public at large. Perhaps the next step for him is to publicly thank most of us for proving him right.

You.are.a.moron.

They are heroes not because they are some pillar of morality. They are heroes because when called, they made the greatest sacrifice a soldier can make in defense of our way of life. You have a very small minded view of this topic. Were the veterans of WWI and WWII heroes? Does your opposition to the war determine whether or not someone deserves to be called a hero? This holiday is for ALL soldiers who have died in combat. Your misguided and unrealistic view of the world is irrelevant. People like you are everything that's wrong with the USA. You live in a dream world where you have the luxury of believing that bad things never have to happen and freedom has no cost.

<puke>

Good response, Teyar. I agree. It's time to stop glorifying war.

Quick! Paddle faster! I hear banjos!

Thanks, Teyar. Great and thoughtful comment. I'm grateful for the intelligent and in-depth discussions that people like Chris Hayes bring to our airwaves. This blanket reverence for our military or any sector is not healthy and should be discussed. We examine it in our own household as do many others.

Thank you Teyar for your comment.

First of all, the whole point of the discussion was about how to honor the soldier without automatically glorifying the war and, thereby, making it easier to get into the next war.

I don't think anyone who saw Chris's interview with the mother of the soldier who had committed suicide could think he was disrespectful of those who serve or unmindful of their sacrifice.

Finally, I think the opening statement that Chris made was the best thing I have seen on television in years.

In about 100 words, Hayes managed to turn the non-glorification of war into the unilateral condemnation of those charged with executing foreign policy by direct order. Well done, Hayes. You managed to commit career suicide in a minute and a half.

n about 100 words, Hayes managed to turn the non-glorification of war into the unilateral condemnation of those charged with executing foreign policy by direct order. Well done, Hayes. You managed to commit career suicide in a minute and a half.

That's not at all what Chris Hayes did.

It is the right that politicized the word "hero" and used it as a brickbat against anyone who opposed Bush's wars. Considered in that context Hayes's remarks make perfect sense. He wasn't denigrating those that serve, rather he was considering the broader context of how the word is used.

Yes and Christine considered the broader context of the word so well he's now the next Keith Olberman. Well done.

probably would think progressive Barry from Chicago has been a hero the past 3 yrs.

cschilton

You mean the Barry whom we call the President of the United States? The Barry who authorized and personally supervised taking out Bin Laden? The Barry who cut taxes for millions of Americans and created millions of jobs in response to the worst financial crisis in the last 90 years? The Barry who saved the U.S. auto industry? The Barry who has done everything he could do to keep us safe and restore our economy in spite of the anti-Obama bloc in the House and the Senate? The Barry whose wife has done more to support our troops and their families than any other First Lady in recent memory?

I'm not saying that his accomplishments are equal to the heroism of those who give their life for their country, but he has certainly performed his duties as Commander in Chief as well as any other president. You mean THAT Barry?

"created millions of jobs?" where???????? Solyndra?

Really? That BS is what you got?

"created millions of jobs?" where???????? Solyndra?

Righty talking points.

How has Obama done on jobs?
3,745,000 gained since "trough" of recession.


How Has Obama done on private-sector jobs?
4,248,000 gained since the "trough" of the recession.

26 months of private-sector job growth.
19 months of over all job growth.

get a clue multifariouisone.....obama does not create jobs, private sector does. guess the brainwashing continues.

get a clue multifariouisone.....obama does not create jobs, private sector does. guess the brainwashing continues.

But wait a minute!!! Isn't this election all about job creation? Isn't it Romney whose running on his "job creation" record while at Bain? Yeah, I think I heard correctly, it was Romney who claimed to have "created" one hundred thousand jobs while at Bain.

So if government doesn't create jobs what is the justification for Romney's candidacy?

Well said vinetender.

In response to "some insults just don't fade away". That's how I feel about the traitor , Hanoi Jane Fonda.

Hayes got the call from Phil Griffin to say something, anything to sound remorseful. He once again fumbled the ball on the goal line.

Oh, blah, blah, blah, vinetender. Hayes is not getting fired for expressing an OPINION and the network is not teetering. Most people here need to step back and take a rest -- this is NOT a big deal.

No biggie for a tone deaf communist I guess.

Do America a favor and get an education. Or at least try to up your IQ to the point where you can understand more than one layer of nuanced thought at a time.

You should start on your 48th song.... maybe an Ode to your hero Chris

Tusk

terms like 'hero' and 'warrior' help only to glorify war".

Far better to use terms like slack jawed and liberal, the true heroes of the left.

I support every service person that has served, deidicated their lives, gave their lives, and their families who have supported and suffered through the danger, service, and demands of the US military from the civil war to Middle East including desert storm, Iraq, and Afganistan. I don't beleve it was all necessary, but our military are pawns used in politics, domestically and internationally. We should care for our military personnel and families more than the enemy (I won't go into my feelings on helping people that would rather see us dead but will gladly take our dirty money).

His apology was as back-handed and clumsy as the original statement.

John-2032532, your comment betrays equally profound misunderstanding of both the original statement and the apology.

OK, isn't it time to put this blog to bed? I think everyone has had their say - what more can be said?

The egalitarians have stated their view that everybody who puts on a uniform is a hero (I equate this to those students to tell their professors that they should get an A because they showed up).

The meritocratists have stated their view that not everybody who puts on a uniform is a hero, that it depends on what you DO when you wear the uniform that counts (I equate this to the professor telling the students that "showing up" is not enough, that you can get an A ONLY if you study hard, do the work, and score well on the tests).

Both sides have a point of view and neither side can budge because it is really a deep divide in the way we think, caused in part I believe by the "ME Generation" philosophies. But both sides DID try to explain why they felt the way they did, so both of those types of posters DID add to the conversation.

Then there are the crossovers from FoxNation and Redstate who have never watched the show but have had ample time to call Chris a librul, a communist, a faggot, a feminist, an intellectual (Horrors - who would want to be called that?), a commie, a dick, an elitist, that he should be fired, that he should die, ad nauseatum and have of course, thrown in their usual Obama comments and what they "think" are hidden racial slurs. These people added NOTHING but there is nothing more even THEY can say - it's all been said!

So how about moving on?