On Saturday morning at 8AM ET on MSNBC Chris and his guests will talk about the military/civilian divide. Plus, we'll discuss President Obama's "Kill List", a story which the New York Times published earlier this week that describes the process by which the President chooses which terrorists to kill or capture. Also, we'll look at the continuing uprising in Syria and how some Republicans are calling for the U.S. to take more action.
Joining Chris will be:
Col. Jack Jacobs (@coljackjacobs), MSNBC military analyst, U.S. Army (Ret.), Vietnam veteran, recipient of three Bronze Stars, two Silver Stars and the Medal of Honor.
Joshua Treviño (@jstrevino), Former Speechwriter for Pres. George W. Bush and former First Lieutenant in the U.S. Army.
Kayla Williams (@kwilliams101), former U.S. Army Sergeant and author of Love My Rifle More than You: Young and Female in the U.S. Army.
Jeremy Scahill (@jeremyscahill), national security correspondent for The Nation and author of Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army.
Hina Shamsi, director of the ACLU’s National Security Project.
Donald Downs, political science professor at The University of Wisconsin, Madison and author of Arms and the University: Military Presence and the Civic Education of Non-Military Student.
Karam Nachar (@knachar), cyber-activist and member of Local Coordination Committees of Syrian Uprising.
Anu Bhagwati, executive director and co-founder of Service Women's Action Network.
:: Blogged by Brett Brownell (@brettbrownell), Up w/ Chris Hayes web & video producer ::





Romney and others are making huge sums of money from their JOB CREATORS but these so called job creators can't pay more taxes because they won't be be able to afford to create more jobs. Makes no sense.
These superpacs give millions of dollars to both campaign parties but can't pay more in taxes. Could someone please rationally explain this.
explanation: because they are GREEDY LIARS..
Can't pay more in taxes, and can't afford (in many cases) to pay a 'living wage' to their workers.
To help you with your hero problem. There are heroes in all walks of life. Firemen and heros everyday, policemen and heros everyday. Military service some of them are heroes (my father won 2 silver stars and a bronze stars in WWII and was discriminated against when he got home, but he tokk care of us and sent us to college he was my hero), and some of them just do their jobs. You don't have to go to war to be a hero, heroes fell the fear and do it anyway, heores are those who stand their ground when others run away. So you need to change what you think of when you think of hero.
Take it one step further and label every one of the 7 billion people on the planet a hero, and ever get any flack. But I'm glad Chris doesn't usually have to play politician.
I would think then that it would be all the more an affront to our nation that some would use the heroism of others for their own personal, political gain. That is how Chris should have framed it. That these cowards like Cheney and Bush and the rest of the neo-cons who never served their country to then use true heroes for their own political advancement is obscene.
I fear our proximity breeds... if not contempt, at least a sense of complacency. Our teachers that feed students that come to class hungry... we honor a single 'teacher of the year' for the nation... one in a state... y'all get the idea.
I'm a 'Browncoat'... and the concept of "Big Damn Heroes" is a Jossism we toss around to our Firefighters... even before 9/11. The idea of people stepping into the breach- where ever that breach occurs. Nurses, housekeepers, laborers that pull a family from a burning car... they happen everywhere. I think our service men and women would feel better when we call them heroes, if we stepped up and recognized all the heroes in our lives.
Is it death that we are using to 'label' the men & women heroes? If they'd made it home, they'd be uncomfortable with the label. This does not diminish their honor of service, nor my gratitude for the sacrifice of both the service members, their friends and family that had to do without them for the time in country, and their communities that will take a long time to make up for their absence. You'll hear them say, "I was just doing my job... and the big picture didn't play near the part as my team, my buddies, my men and women... coming under fire." In those instances of incredible heroics... those men and women were saving each other... not bucking for a star.
For your guests that voluteered for the service, people of all levels of education got drafted. PHD's MD's college grads, high school grads, and drop outs. The benefit of a draft is it helps prevent needless wars and everyone is involved, theoretically, rich, poor, educated, uneducated, they all get called, they all fight to save their lives so they are equally as good as volunteers.
This nation needs a mandatory six year tour of service with the first three years at the beginning of the third age decade (age 20) l and the last three years beginning in the sixth decade (age 60)
I'm watching the segment as I write this and all I can say is - Kudos! Last week in my comment on 'The Statement', I said I'd like the opinion of Col. Jack Jacobs on the matter and - Presto! Here he is! Along with other veterans, including female veterans which is very pertinent to today's military and an issue very close to me. You see, as a service-connected disabled veteran I receive my primary treatment at the only VA hospital named for a woman veteran. Lt. Aleda E. Lutz, who was an Army Flight Nurse killed in action in WWII (France - 1944) and the first woman to receive the Distinguished Flying Cross. She was born and raised 20 miles from where I now sit. The hospital is in Saginaw, MI and she was from nearby Freeland (ironic, I know). The discussion today is very astute and I again give kudos to Mr. Hayes for today's guests and theme. Chris, you are a stand-up guy!
Maybe Chris DOES actually read what is blogged on his site!! I hope so!!
BTW, Chris, I also have to agree, instead of running from this "fight" you are facing it head on! I appreciate YOUR bravery and courage.
Keep it up and I will always be a fan!!
I have been at war since 1972 with the drug war, still can't get a job since I refuse to take a drug test. Nobody kisses my ass like they do everyday with the veterans and the media. How are they doing with the drug war in Pakistan and afghanistasn, they making people pee in a cup for a job over there or are they helping them harvest the crops. Sick of hearing about heroes, anybody that kills somebody else is not a hero to me. Remember 1967, Timothy Leary, thats where our heads are at.
Chris, I believe your comment from last week has be hugely misconstrued and wildly misrepresented. When I listened to it the first time, I understood you were making a point about the "normalization of war" or even the glorification of war. You explicitly stated you were not denigrating or desecrating anyone who served or is serving.
That being said, I can say from my Vietnam War service that every person in the military is not a hero though many are brave. During their service, members of the military would be among the first to acknowledge this.
The culture which allows 1% of the populace to bear the brunt of battle seeks to assuage its conscience [I think] by ersatz admiration heaped on all who wear the uniform. Wearing the uniform is honorable, but talk is cheap, and praising somebody as a hero while evading the chance to share the peril is neither an admirable behavior pattern nor an acceptable substitute for doing one's duty.
Thank you for trying to stimulate some rational discussion on this matter.
I admire your decision to confront your critics. Instead of apologizing ambiguously, and walking away from it, you turn, face the criticism and rush it headlong, by dedicating the very next show to the issue. This is what I really love about this show, and what most of your critics fail to (ironically) appreciate in a country where they claim to have fought for your right to speak.
If one can't watch your show and come away learning something they didn't know when the show started, they must be brain dead.
Soldiers put themselves in danger, ostensibly for the greater good of the country. Their responsibility is to carry out their mission. They have our backs, and for this reason they are heroes.
Citizens do not put themselves in danger, but enjoy the freedoms that our soldiers protect. Along with those freedoms come responsibilities - responsibilities that include making sure our soldiers are risking their lives for a necessary cause.
Questioning the wars does not mean we disrespect our soldiers, it means we have their backs.
I think that it's a disgrace that Congress hasn't any laws in place to force corporations or businesses to have positions in place for veterans that have served this country and protected democracy. They intergrate back into society with skills. Yes, it's a voluntary military, but the question is how many are willingly volunteering? Lip service is not sufficient. It does nothing for the veteran who still have a family to provide for after separation. Lives are lost and for what an unappreciative, greedy spoiled society of people. It's a damn shame.....@cory....those people overseas will cut your throat if they were ever to invade this country...remember that when you talk down about our soldiers...maybe if your coward ass would have enlisted you would have at least had some combat skills and a job to help fight the drug war....kiss your ass for what...you fit the exact profile of the kind of people in society that I speak of...
Scahill (blackwater) is a jackass...there are no rules of engagement ....IT'S CALLED WAR for a reason. Casualities are unavoidable....this is nothing new.....When King David was commanded by GOD to go and take the land and leave none alive. There were men, women, children, babies, old people.....Question: Is GOD A MURDERER....were they innocent civilians?.....
Actually, yes, God is a murderer, according to his own Commandments, at least in the OT. I remember seeing a web site that tallied up all the deaths in the Bible attributed solely to God's command, and it was in the millions. He also has a consistent propensity to requiring and supporting war.
Of course, there's a lot to be said that the OT simply reflects its less civilized times, and we're a lot better than that now.
RE: Jeremy Scahill - Why is it we can pass laws that allow George Zimmerman to stalk and kill Trayvon Martin for "feeling threatened", yet you believe it to be evil for our government to kill a known Al Qaeda operative and leader for feeling that our country may be threatened?
It seems Chris Hayes became a real man today, but some of you people on the comment boards? JEEZ...
Wow, what bunch of military suck-ups/groupies. Remember the 1st Amendment… Remember the FREEDOM to speak ones mind and the Constitution our military is supposed to be protecting. I say BS to that and 3 cheers for Chris Hayes. I'm always thrilled to see a news person or politician who steps outside the corporate box to speak the TRUTH!
Yea, everyone loves the military and our Vets… Like Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld who sent soldiers into battle without the proper armor or a clear cut plan beyond George W. declaring "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED". Or what about soldiers getting electrocuted in showers due to shoddy Halliburton/KBR contracting work. WHERE WAS THE OUTRAGE THEN mofo's?
I've talked to many soldiers/vets who tell me they started watching and believing FOX News while oversees. One Black woman (who suffered a massive stroke after doing dangerous covert ops work in a hostile African nation) expressed her preference saying FOX News was like an old friend she served with.
That scares me...
NOTE: (It reminded me of jail inmates watching the show "COPS" and cheering for the police… Stockholm syndrome, maybe? By the way, some journalist with means should investigate why so many serving soldier are suffering stokes)
Yea, I'm just an overly angry man, right? It's only some strange coincidence that Vets top the list for homelessness and suicide. You people want to criticize something then I'd say let's all find out why 18 VETS ARE COMMITTING SUICIDE EVERYDAY! I know that pain in my own family. So you Conservative war mongers can stick you Yellow ribbon up your ***es.
And to be honest, I like to expand the meaning of the word HERO to include the good activists & community organizers who in the face of overwhelming Conservative hate mongering, fought in the trenches, VOLUNTEERING their precious time in the service of the Constitution. A vicious, cunning attack on our Rights and Freedoms is being perpetrated by a very few, VERY rich, silver spoon trust fund babies who NEVER served the nation that was so good to them.
I am somebody who hates hypocrisy spoact.blogspot.com
"…you can kill the Taliban bastards but you can't piss on them" Val Sandy A.
I see all these silver spoon trust fund babies (like Mitt Romney) are trying to score political points using Syria and Iran for war mongering speeches to work up the imbeciles. This would be, at best, pathetic coming from any American but especially for Mitt Romney. During the Vietnam War, Mitt served a higher purpose in France.
During the Bush/Cheney Wars not one of Romney's 5 sons served in the military because of their Mother's higher purpose. Since the lower classes have been fighting the Romney's (and other rich families) war for them I think the next ground conflict should be fought with soldiers from the top 3% of wealthy families in the USA. I want to see at least 3 Romney boys, a Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove, Wolfowitz family member, some FOX news Ho's, Willie Geist and a Trump… fighting in the streets of the next oil rich nation we invade for the oil companies.
Hey it's only fair, right? Since it's these chicken-hawk silver spoons who always start these wars. Maybe the bastards would think twice before another Iraq happens.
© 2012 by F. G. E.
@ spoact....i agree....
thanks, it breaks my heart to be so critical of my fellow Americans but I've got my kids future to think about...
SpoAct... you have valid points all 'round.
I can speculate that the atrocities are the product of over-long deployment, but the other reason-- and you said it, the troops that engaged in those behaviors had tacit permission, and the leadership in those units should have been the ones to take responsibility. We have a big problem with holding the top responsible... as in drek doth flow downhill.
I wonder about the Fox newshounds among vets... is it that their work is being held up and praised, their leadership supported... and it is damned hard to be picked apart in analysis... when, again, you're following orders, trying to keep your troops together... and Fox pundits give kudos to the troops, first and foremost.
My boy and I have had some hard discussions. He's working security, these days, because his trade has crashed-- like so many others. The places hiring security are 'well-to-do' posh high-rises, or gated communities. He's a man that can make connections easily, and he's made strong acquaintances among his residents... who tout the 'cut taxes' until the middle class lies bleeding for us to exploit... (my evaluation) and they make logical sounding arguments.
Fox says the same thing Overandover and over ... which was Goebbles technique... say it loud and long enough, and it becomes the truth...
Perception is everything.
could have enlisted but I learned from Vietnam, besides I cant pass a drug test. Cowards , I keep hearing that word, make the veterans get their own jobs , that takes courage. Of course I could LIE and get a job.
Chris, I knew you were in “trouble’ with your statement about heroes! As someone commented, there are many heroes and I consider all of the “volunteers” in the military and Coast Guard as heroes! It is immoral and morally corrosive to ask less than 1% of our young Americans to wage war while no sacrifice is asked of the majority of Americans, not even taxes to pay for the wars, and another 1% of Americans who earn unprecedented wealth! It is a question of shared sacrifice, of a national commitment to armed conflict and not as the vast majority of Americans have experienced since 9/11. I believe that the majority of Americans after 9/11 were willing to sacrifice, instead they were given an irrational tax cut and Blunder Boy told them to go shopping, some sacrifice! What is needed is some balance between a volunteer force and national service draft, the present policy is simply immoral and a national disgrace! As to the “Kill List” of President Obama, I fully support the policy of killing the Terrorists targets wherever they are found, be it in the Middle East or in the United States, whether they are U.S. Citizens or not. No Terrorist should be allowed to hide behind the protection of citizenship when they choose Terrorism against the American people! Perhaps Jeremy Scahill should visit some 9/11 or Fort Hood families or take a stroll in Section 60 of the Arlington National Cemetery! Yes, the killing of innocent persons should always be prevented when possible, but kill the TERRORISTS!
As for the drone attacts. Since this war on terror is a new type of war, don't you think maybe it's time to redo some of the "old rules of war". Think of all the collaterol damage in WW11 and Vietnam. Because of our international network, we know what's happening tomorrow before it does. It's time to take all of this into consideration. No one wants to kill anyone. We all know that. But folks it's a different time. Our country fould that out on 911.
Its funny when a soldier comes back and gets to smoke weed for PTSD, and I go to jail for it.
@cory...they earned it.....you haven't.....
I'd also like to point out that the mix of guests here is more realistic. Hayes' show tends to cater to the more liberal, progressive leanings among us, preaching to the choir, so to speak. That's probably the only criticism I would have for UP, though I agree with Colbert that reality has a liberal bias. ;)
This mix today seems to have opinions from both ends of the spectrum, which makes for a more thought provoking and informative presentation.
"This mix today seems to have opinions from both ends of the spectrum, which makes for a more thought provoking and informative presentation."
Exactly! Great show! The best I think I've seen from 'Up'! Chris, you have some work to do to top today, but have at it! I'll be back tomorrow...
You cowards don't even realize we're in a WAR right here on good ole US soil. Like I always tell my Conservative wacko friends; "...this ain't no Tea Party, this is a full scale Class War and the Aristocrats are kicking the American PEOPLE's @$$..."
Join the fight cyberbitchslap2.blogspot.com
As a liberal American I have no major issue with the Obama Adminstrations use of drone strikes. Of course there are examples of innocents who have been killed and that's no doubt terrible. But this is WAR. And those people are generally in the line of fire. After seeing the PBS Frontline on Yemen last week I have zero sympathy for those who do deserve to die. They are Al-Queda or affiliated with other extremist groups.
The 16 year old son of the terrorist Awlaki dies in a strike and it is our fault? His father killed him by his own actions. He is the one who took up this cause because of religious extremism. If he wanted his son alive he should have stayed far away from him. He threatened and attacked us and we killed him.
We do not "target" civilians. Yes, mistakes happen and people die. But let's not attempt to portray all of these people as innocents. Americans are hardly free to roam in places like Yemen. This is not a free society. The reporters who filmed that Frontline piece were brave beyond belief. Jeremy says we are creating terrorists? No, that has been happening on the ground for a very long time. They didn't just start hating America and the beliefs in which they are subjugated often ensure no other result.
As a liberal I have very little sympathy for anyone who is operating based on religious fundamentalism. Most of the "innocents" who have died had little if any of their own free will during their time on this Earth as free will hardly exists in such societies. It is the only world many of the innocent involved ever knew and that is almost as sad as their deaths. Much more concerned with preventing that from happening here at home because it has little to do with which particular religion is involved. It can happen anywhere.
There is reason and then there is the Far Left and Far Right where such things to do exist.
Romney is calling for the US to arm the rebels in Syria. He calls Syria friends. Friends with murderers of their own. It speaks volumes about a Romney presidency. Frankly, i don't believe he qualifies to represent WE THE PEOPLE. Romney has not paid his dues with regards to service in the Armed Forces, and instead of talking about changing the consititution to include 3yrs business experience, it should include service in the military. Syria (Assad) is a friend as long as the US is giving aid. Iran-Contra was a disaster and the US needs to stop interfering and buying allies with our tax dollars. @ Simansi....she should be thankful that she has free speech to even insinuate that Pres Obama should be careful about decisions that are made with regards to killing enemies that are willing to kill and die in order to bring our country to its knees....her citizenship should be revoked ...
It is indeed unfortunate that Chris chooses to be complicit in the U.S. and allies sponsored war against Syria, the latest example being blaming, without any evidence, the Houla massacre (and others) on the Syrian government forces. Chris should publish and discuss this on-the-ground report:
THE HOULA MASSACRE: Opposition Terrorists "Killed Families Loyal to the Government"
Detailed Investigation
by Marat Musin
at
Chris, don't be a part of the well-orchestrated and well-funded U.S and "friends" war on Syria. Having a non-opposition spokesperson on the show to speak the truth is advised, instead of just U.S. supported "activist" Karam Nachar.
Joshua Trevino made the claim that members of the military fight for themselves and not for the state. People who fight for themselves are called mercenaries. Our history clearly reflects our commitment to the notion that every able-bodied male is expected to serve and defend his community-whatever the level. The 2nd Amendment indicates that defense of the community is not only a duty, but a right Times have changed and our military response to threats may call for a different organization and tactics but we do great harm to ourselves and our community if we eliminate the commitment that binds us together and ensures our survival. We should all be expected to serve our community, both in war and in peace, in ways that strengthen us and give genuine meaning to the word patriotism.
Frank, I don't think Mr. Trevino explained quite properly. Those small squads and platoons in the heat of a fire-fight or on patrol are not thinking of us back home. They are thinking of their buddies next to them. Ask any veteran who's 'seen the elephant' and they will tell you that when they are 'down-range' they are there for each other. A 'Band of Brothers (and Sisters, now)' thing. That's really what he meant.
No, Frank... the ones that fight for the MONEY are mercenaries. The mercenary fights for whomever pays the butcher's bill.
Bad Bob... you nailed it.
I am a Libertarian and the party does not favor a draft but I am attracted to this idea. I think we should have some kind of universal service right out of high school. It would solve so many problems. As far a the word "hero" it is a feel good word and people want to apply it to people they feel good about but in its narrow and most useful sense you are not a hero just because you put on the uniform and die. To say so takes too much away from true heroes. I see this happen all the time where the connotation of a word gets mixed up with who the word is referring to. Perhaps it was not a compassionate thing to say on memorial day but it you look at literal meaning Chris was right.
On the show Joshua Treviño said in defense of killing innocent civilians in drone bombings on the :Kill List" which the other guest was rightly calling it as "murders", and Joshua Treviño said with certainty that around D-Day of WW II the allies bombed and killed French civilians in order to keep clear a particular French road, and the Joshua Treviño declared that no reasonable person would see that action as being murder.
The thing is that his claim of America (the Allies) knowingly and purposely killed French civilians as a part of our legitimate warfare was not made public and it surely was the first that I had ever heard of it, and surely that info was suppressed because very many Americans would indeed view it as murders instead of warfare.
Joshua Treviño misused that example as a justification of the "Kill list" for drone bombs that kill (murder) women and children and innocent men in quantities.
I was surprised and disappointed that he was not called out on his barbaric stance, but he was a speech writer for George W. Bush which gives us another example of that Bush administration being full of war criminals and belligerent animals as Presidential advisers.
Of course I too am severely disappointed that our President Obama is carrying onward the rights to murder people around the world.