On Saturday's show, we'll examine the moral and political aspects of the controversy surrounding Missouri Republican Senatorial Candidate Rep. Todd Akin's abortion comments, and we'll take a deep dive into the history of a spurious myth that has somehow persisted in many far-right circles: that women cannot become pregnant if they are "legitimately" raped. And we'll discuss racial politics with a blockbuster panel that includes Ta-Nehisi Coates, author of the riveting new essay "Fear of a Black President" in The Atlantic.
Joining Chris at 8 AM ET on MSNBC will be:
Katha Pollitt, columnist for The Nation.
Esther Armah, author, playwright, and radio host of WBAI-FM's "Wake Up Call."
Jay Smooth, host of WBAI-FM's "Underground Railroad."
Michelle Goldberg, senior contributing writer for Newsweek/Daily Beast and author of "The Means of Reproduction: Sex, Power and the Future of the World."
Melissa Harris-Perry, host of MSNBC's "Melissa Harris-Perry" and professor at Tulane University.
W. Kamau Bell, comedian and host of FX's "Totally Biased with W. Kamau Bell."
Ta-Nehisi Coates, senior editor at The Atlantic and author of "The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood."
Kristen Day, executive director of Democrats for Life.
:: Blogged by Katherine Guthrie (@kguth1130), production assistant for Up w/ Chris Hayes ::
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To Ta-Nehisi Coates,
I read your article "Fear of a Black President" over at your home base.
As a white European I had to google a lot, but it was a good, enlightening read. I have nothing to compare the living situation of the African American community to "at home". Not that we weren't rich in diversity and racism in some ways over there as well, but there is no ethnic community that has been abused like the African American one without being followed by (public) atonement. Since I'm German, the Holocaust comes to mind, but we don't dare compare anything to the Holocaust, not even other holocausts.
The German "sins”, for lack of a better word, have been made clear to me over and over again in school. You could say ad nauseam, BUT at some point the message sunk in (for most people I know anyway). WWII is long enough into the past that I don't feel the need to apologize to every Jewish person I meet, after all I did not take part in any of it, but in my life I try to own it. I know what's possible if a whole nation falls into blind hatred and rage while seeing other people's/peoples' differences so very sharply.
But enough diversion, I want to bring this to a circle. I know that the realization and atonement (of sorts) of not just your own past, but also your nation’s, especially if you want to be proud to call yourself a citizen, is crucial, cleansing, relieving.
What makes me sad (while also scaring me more than just a bit) is that the US (in public life) is very, very bad at being truthful with its past and present doings. The killing and abuse of the natives and slavery just the beginning of it all. And although both of these "doings" are fairly far in the past (my justification for the semi-holocaust comparison, I know this country has some issues with nuances), they still reverberate loudly into the present.
What this country is very, very good at on the other hand is denialism and distractionism, blind patriotism. Anything bad is labeled “unAmerican”, any criticism is unAmerican - I guess, since I am unAmerican anyway, I might as well own that, too.
I will most likely never know what it feels like to be patriotic. I have never waved a German flag in my entire life (not a soccer fan), and possibly never will - although I should admit that I'm somewhat proud that we take on our guilt and deal with it, and "shove it down" students throats from grades 7 to 12.
Imho, the US needs to look in the mirror and deal with its hawkish nose and the wrinkles and what not, own up to them. And then become all the better for it.
I know it's quite asking the African Community to be twice as good, but I wish for you to continue to call out injustice where it's done by this country no matter the color of skin of the victim. Be twice as good, by being the uncomfortable public conscience. If that could become your community bumper sticker, I think, you’d have every right to be proud unAmerican Americans and call yourselves exceptional, and I’d be proud to wave some flag-shaped device to cheer you on.
Guess something I think that's kind of weird is that nobody (left or right) is calling for Todd Akin to resign from the House of Representatives, just the Republican nomination for U.S. Senate from Missouri. I kind of wonder if Todd Akin was just a random congressman that few people had ever heard of before, would this be getting the same hype or is this tied into U.S. Senate election and that whole "who is up, who is down" aspect of political coverage.
Also being a total hypocrite, does Mitt Romney's joke mean Republicans have just written-off trying to pick-up that U.S. Senate seat from Hawaii where Birtherism gets tied into that whole "if you're Hawaiian, you're technically American citizens, but not really" which is a very sensitive issue in the Ahola state.
Katherine, since there will certainly be discussion about birthers, I want to make a couple of points that are routinely 'missed' by just about every single commentator.
1) Obama released his official, State Certified BC in June - 2008. The first candidate ever to make such a document available for public rerusal during his/her campign
2) There was a Republican Administration in office in 2008. Dr Chiyome Fukino (a Republican & the then Director of Health in Hawaii) *confirmed* that Obama was born there and that they had his 'original' BC. The Republican national leadership could have chosen to squash birtherism flat there and then.
They chose otherwise.
Their inaction has resulted in a 4 year long spectacle of slander, defamation and villification of not only Obama (and his parents), but their *own Party colleagues* - Dr Fukino and the Republican Governor, Linda Lingle.
This morning's show regarding Todd Akin's comments seem to contradict the DNC's choice of their convention's keynote speaker. Bill Clinton used his power as governor and president to force his intentions on numerous vulnerable women.
Cutting edge Chris, get Clinton on the show and ask him about Akin.
Video would go megaviral
The RNC in Tampa should be a good time for Republicans. Like Minneapolis in 2008 where the most popular hangout was Larry Craig’s airport Men’s room, lol.
Destroy the GOP cyberbitchslap2.blogspot.com
Oh, try to get an opposing opinion on the show. Having the same ideas drone on gets boring.
I doubt you could but try to get a conservative on. It's the fair and balanced thing.
You must be the boring one...Skip over to Fox News!
I wish the media & politicians would step up to the plate on this issue of citizenship instead of playing one side off the other for ratings and money. If your parent(s) is an American citizen it does not matter where you were born, you are an American citizen. If your Parent(s) were not born here but you were, you are a citizen. No need for birth certificate drama. The President's Mother was American born in Kansas and Gov. Romeney's parents were American even though his Father and Grandfather were born in Mexico, his Great-Grandfather, an American citizen, left the US in the 1800's due to issues regarding poligamy. The depressing thing about all of this is that our elected officials are promoting these ideas. Let's move on to the next phoney issue or bring back civics to the classroom so that voters will be more informed.
Chris you crack me up. You don't need to spend 10 mins trying to justify your comment, and try to apologize for telling the truth who they are. Republicans are racists. They are mean and hateful people. That is who is they are. Their inequalities towards people who are different are world renowned. You don't have to apologize for your opinions especially when they are true. You did not do anything wrong and you have my support.
Oh man, here we go: Melissa Harris Perry is stanning for Obama.
Chris... Tim Wise needs to be in on this conversation!
Yes, yes...get Tim Wise!
Chris, remember that you are white...listen...too many white folks stop listening when the word, "racist" is used. Talk about how white folks -include yourself -need to look deep within-President Obama can not talk about race until his second term. Too many white folks "know" that black people favor black people" and our President needs white voters. Look at yourselves - talking about race is not often done and it is dangerous for a lot of politicians. Chris, review MHP -(rules for white folks who talk about race) and Chris - listen...esp. to yourself."Take your time and think before you speak." Rememb er that you are white (It's not your fault" "Silence is golden." Listen more , Chris and stop jumping up and down! Great panel today...so listen and ask them to pass you a note under the table if you "mess"up." A lot of white men need to look deep within...and even ask their wives to help them ie: Newt G. Joe Wilson, Ted Nugent, The Trumpet Donald....list goes on and on.
I am sick of this idea that only black people can talk about race. Black people don't own racism. I am a Native American and I know what its like to be discriminated against. I bad a black manager who states, "All white men are cheaters, lairs and they cannot be trusted." Even white people are discriminated against. Chris is doing a good job talking about a delicate subject. I love Melisa Harris-Perry but this is Chris Hayes's show and he has a right to talk about whatever he wants. Your post even sounds a bit sexist.
I agree. As a woman I can speak about discrimination again all women regardless of color.
Me too......I'm Irish Catholic and can speak of the "no nothing" party, "Irish need not apply". The only jobs the Irish could get after getting off the cargo ships (because of the ethnic genocide being done to us by the Brits through starvation) was deep in the mountains mining coal.
The words you choose can direct your conversations and beliefs. Follow the meaning of the word 'racist' and then follow where 'racialist' goes. To talk about race is not the same as being a racist.
Birthers also deny the FBI, the CIA, Homeland Security, and the Secret Service their credibility in discerning the birth of the president. It is amazing in America how many people think Donald Trump knows more than those organizations combined.
Dear Mr Hayes,
On your show this morning Ms. Pollitt from The Nation was factually incorrect and misleading on the teachings ,of the Catholic Church concerning the doctrines on Papal infallibility and abortion. It seems you bring up the Catholic Church often on your show, but never have on a true Catholic theologian or apologist to give your audience the truth of the Church and it's teaching. Why?
Thank you.
As a historical theologian who has written and published on the issues of the dogmas of the immaculate conception and papal infallibility, I would have appreciated a more nuanced explanation of these issues. The immaculate conception was defined in 1854 (by Pius IX) and papal infallibility was defined by the First Vatican Council (1870).
Concerning Roman Catholic teaching on abortion:
Since the first century of Christianity, abortion has been condemned by Christians. While the New Testament does not address this question, the Didache (written and distributed before 100) and The Letter of Barnabas (written in the early 100s) both explicitly and categorically condemned abortion. This stand distinguished Christians from the prevailing Roman culture of their time.
By the late 300s and early 400s, views on abortion proved more complicated. Augustine and Jerome taught that abortion in the early stages of pregnancy—when the fetus was “unformed”—was not homicide, while Basil considered the “fine distinction” between unformed and formed fetuses malicious and called those involved in abortions at any stage murderers.
In the 1100s and 1200s, following the metaphysics of Aristotle, theologians like Thomas Aquinas argued that the fetus did not have a soul until some time between 40 and 90 days after conception. While canon law treated an early stage abortion as serious sin, abortions in later pregnancy resulted in excommunication. This was the view of Pope Innocent III (1161-1216) and Pope Gregory XIV in 1591. Gregory’s immediate predecessor, Pope Sixtus V, condemned abortions at any stage of gestation. Pope Pius IX in 1869 issued his conclusion that the soul entered the pre-embryo at conception and condemned abortion at any stage. Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903) added further restrictions. The direct intent to end the life of a fetus, at any stage, continues be condemned by the Catholic Church.
However, there are situations that are complicated. When the mother’s life is in danger, for example when there is uterine cancer or an ectopic pregnancy, procedures that are intended to save the mother’s life may have the unintended result of ending the fetus’ life. These events are not considered to be in the same category with an intentional abortion.
I hope that helps to clarify the Roman Catholic teaching on this issue and its historical context.
Excellent, Kenneth. Thank you! The Catholic Church has always taught that abortion is a grave sin. Uterine cancer is another example similar to ectopic pregnancy. As you know the "principle of double effect " comes in to play. Surgical excision of the uterus is the common therapy for uterine cancer, but of course if the woman is pregnant, the baby's life will be lost. The double effect is that by trying to cure the mother, an uninteded consequence is that the baby will die. You are not trying to directly killing or (aborting) the baby, but it is a sad consequence of trying to save the mother's life.
Chris, if your reading this, I strongly recommend trying to bring an ethicist on the show from the National Catholic Bioethics Center (NCBC). They are excellent.
please discuss how the republicans could criticize the President. I need a baseline from which to understand the liberal take on legitimate criticism.
Some Dems with racial bias would prefer $9.99 Cain over President Obama. Chris, next time include President Clinton with your panel and ....give him time to speak!!
Chris, I have fallen in love with everyone on the panel today...but, not you, Chris!
Okay, right off, I just want to say I was drop jawed impressed by the open discussion. This is amazing to hear. I don't hear this quality of discourse anywhere else. Thanks for this show.
I agree, it was fabulous. We should be able to have this type of discussion without being offended.
Dear Chris,
On your show this morning, Ms. Pollitt from The Nation was incorrect and misrepresented the doctrinal teaching of the Catholic Church on papal infallibility and abortion. It seems you like to bring up what the Catholic Church teaches or believes often on your show, but you never have a true Catholic theologian or apologist on to discuss the true teaching of the Church. Why?
Thank you.
Anyone know what MHP article Chris introduces MHP with? Says she just wrote it? It's not on her site.
From my perspective Chris has the best most informative show on all of MSNBC because of his choice of guests and his respect for his guests. MHP is a great guest but needs a lot of work as host. No one is the perfect host but for my biases Chris does the best
Was just watching the show with Chris Hayes, and I believe he made a tongue-in-cheek comment about how the black culture is personified to be confrontational, aggressive, and "gangsta" in a sense.
While the panel found this amusing, I never heard anyone actually refute it, and it made me once again think about a question that has been bothering me for several years.
What is the essence of black personification as viewed from within the black culture?
As a white male, most black people I pass on the street refuse to even look at me or just glare at me without a response if I were to say "Good morning." What is that, if not confrontational and aggressive?
I've simply stopped trying to engage unfamiliar black people under the age of 50. Which is sad, as I think conversations would be of a very interesting and enlightning perspective. I just can't seem to get through that very thick wall. And it's not my wall, I assure you.
I should preface by confirming that I am pro-choice. But to answer Chris' question of how a pro-lifer (who equates abortion with murder) coud support exceptions, I would offer the following: If one believes in the founding principles espoused in the Declaration of Independence -e.g. life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness - then it should be clear that the government's blanket prohibition of abortion, with allowing exceptions, denies two, if not three, of these things. Clearly, forcing a rape or incest victim to carry full term has the potential of severely limiting the woman's liberty and happiness, and by extension holds the potential of subjecting her baby to an unhappy childhood (if one assumes that the mother, forced to raise an unwanted reminder of her rape or incest, might not exercise optimal parenting skills). And in the case of a conflict between the life of the mother vs. that of the fetus (e.g. a complication of pregnancy which threatens the mother's life), would a pro-lifer really argue that, in to avoid 'killing' the fetus, the mother should be forced to deny life to both the mother and fetus?
I am not sure of the significance, but here is an interesting observation my wife made after watching the Romney "birth certificate" video that was discussed on the program.
>"No one’s ever asked to see my birth certificate. They know that THIS IS THE PLACE that we were born and raised.”
It is not evident from the text, so watch the video again. The emphasis on "this is the place" is a Mormon shibboleth. It refers to Brigham Young's statement "This is the place" as Mormon settlers entered the Salt Lake Valley on July 24, 1847.
For further information, see "This is the Place Monument," "This is the Place Heritage Park," and "Pioneer Day."
The discussion around the Fear of a Black President article was interesting, but I think that some of the panelists made way too many references to the white people or liberal white people who felt guilty and voted for Obama. Guilt is a powerful motivator, and some people may have voted for President Obama out of their guilt. However, there are a lot of white people voted for Obama because he is one of the most articulate, rationale, and generally intelligent progressive candidates for the Presidency that we have seen in many many years. Personally, I never experienced any guilt or fascination with his blackness as I decided to vote for him or to work for his election or reelection. I certain that I am not unique. The Atlantic article was good, but the panel's discussion of white guilt or white voting behavior was tedious and lacking in insight.
Too many Americans do have serious and irrational problems with the idea of a black President. In 2008, if candidate Obama had not been brilliant, running against one of the weakest and most foolish opponents, and following a disastrous previous administration -- he probably would not have been elected. The contrast between Obama and the Republicans was pretty stark. It should not be so difficult for the panel to give more voters credit for noticing it.
BTW..... Melissa Harris Perry is one of my favorite MSNBC hosts/guests. She is smart and speaks clearly. This morning, she did not say "freaking". I smiled and figured no harm -- it is doubtful that children were watching.
"Too many Americans do have serious and irrational problems with the idea of a black President. In 2008," This seems to be a very broad stroked and unsubstantiated comment? Of whom did you speak of? I didn't know anyone who had an issue with his race, but many people in 2008 who had an issue with his policies, ideology, direction of the country. Interestingly, 92% of all African AMerican voters voted for him in 2008. Did these Americans have serious and irrational problems with white presidential candidate, John McCain? The same logic as yours.
I am white, and I voted for President Obama because he is a democrat. I will vote for him again because he is a democrat. I don't care what color he is. It doesn't matter. I agree with his politics, they are the same as mine. Moreover, I think he's a really nice person, who actually cares about everyone in this country, not just the rich people like Romney does.
Chris, another issue connected with Romney's birther joke that I dont hear anyone addressing, is delegates. Gingrich and Santorum just released their delegates and I suspect Romney said the birther comment, as an attempt to secure those delegates. It appears to me he is pretty worried about those delegates crossing over to support Ron Paul. That doesnt excuse the racism connotation, but its another reason, to me, why he did it.
Also, dont forget his son, Matt, did a birther "joke" awhile back and "apologized" for it. Its interesting that Romney tries to brush it off, yet his son apologized. Apparently there are double-standards in his own family.